Real Madrid vs Bayern Munich is a “final before the final” - Rummenigge

Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (Lippstadt, 1955) is inseparable from Bayern Munich. On the field and in the boardroom, he shaped the club for more than four decades and continues to do so today as a member of the supervisory board. One of the most influential figures in European soccer, the Bayern icon spoke to us at AS ahead of the latest showdown between his club and Real Madrid in the Champions League.

- Madrid-Bayern. Enough said.

“It’s the most-played matchup in Champions League history – I looked it up. There have been 28 meetings so far. Madrid has two more wins than us. It’s the same in the UEFA club rankings: they’re first, we’re just behind. It’s the pinnacle, the game of all games, a final before the final.”

- And the quintessential European classic.

“It’s the tie that has generated the most buzz over time. In the 2000s we made life hardest for Madrid; lately they’ve taken the edge. From black beast to white beast. Five Champions League titles in ten years says it all.”

- What happens to Madrid in the Champions League?

“The myth began in the 1950s with those five European Cups won by the Di Stéfano and Gento side between 1956 and 1960. Then came the Galácticos. Madrid has always gathered the crème de la crème of world soccer. I remember eliminating them in 1976 – 1-1 in the first leg and 2-0 in the second, all three goals by Gerd ‘Der Bomber’ Müller. I was 19, and the moment I stepped onto that field I realized this was something special. It still is. It’ll be two heated games, in Madrid and Munich.”

- Does the badge play a role?

“The stadium weighs on you. The crowd does too. Back then you also had to be a bit wary of the referee you got (laughs), but the energy that stadium can generate is extraordinary. I remember the tie against City in 2022. Madrid were practically out – until they turned it around in stoppage time. The stadium and the fans, together with the team, become a hurricane. You need nerves of steel, composure, and mental readiness.”

- Any memory that stuck with you?

“In ’76 I played on the left wing and Hoeness on the right. On my side was Del Bosque, who didn’t push forward much. Uli had Camacho, who attacked every time, so I had to run across the pitch repeatedly to help him. I covered so many miles I ended up in the jacuzzi and nearly fainted when Franz Beckenbauer came over and said, ‘You were outstanding, kid, my respects.’ I never ran that much again.”

- How do you see the current tie?

“First, we’re right not to label ourselves favorites, no matter how stable our team is. This isn’t a normal game. I’m still close friends with Pep Guardiola and called him before his round-of-16 tie, but even then I knew Madrid in February was nothing like early-season Madrid. They had issues, but since the games against City they’ve been that team again – capable of winning everything if you let them. Our meeting two years ago is proof. We were ahead for a long time at the Bernabéu, then came that double blow and the final slipped away.”

- The prelude to the 15th.

“We need to reach the level we showed against PSG in the league phase. In the first half we were outstanding; in the second, after Luis Díaz’s red card, we grew huge defensively. That’s exactly what we’ll need in Madrid. If we can match that level, we’ll have a chance to lay a solid foundation for the return leg. Humility is key – we’re facing a massive challenge. It will be the toughest test.”

- Were you surprised the Xabi Alonso chapter in Madrid ended so quickly?

“First of all, I felt for him. He took on the challenge with ambition after his success at Leverkusen. What followed I can’t judge in detail, but when results fall short of expectations, the solution is often a coaching change. Arbeloa has found the right formula again and the team is performing at the highest level. I’m convinced Xabi Alonso will find his path.”

- Was Xabi close to Bayern?

“After several refusals, we opted for Vini (Kompany). Sometimes fate smiles on you. We’re fortunate to have him. I’ve seen great coaches at Bayern – Lattek, Hitzfeld, Heynckes, Guardiola – and Vini is adapting to that level. I’m enjoying watching the team again, which wasn’t always the case in recent years. The soccer is good, results follow, and there’s peace in the club again. The coach is the most important employee, and Vini is a blessing, also on a human level. He works with what the club gives him and makes the most of it. We also asked him to trust the academy more, and he’s integrated nine players, with Karl leading the way.”

- Karl has broken through.

“Lennart just turned 18 and has already debuted for the senior national team. The most important thing is helping him keep his feet on the ground, but we have the right coach and players to guide him. There’s a clear hierarchy again with leaders like Kane, Neuer, Kimmich, and also Olise, who is growing rapidly. It reminds me of my early days with leaders like Beckenbauer, Müller, and Maier.”

- Olise is attracting interest from Madrid and Barcelona.

“Those are rumors that make everyone at the club smile. You know better than anyone how the media carousel works. He has three years left on his contract – nothing more to say. People go to the stadium for players like him.”

- Would a player like Vinicius fit at Bayern?

“The question is redundant – he’s priceless and already at the ideal club. It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s one of Florentino Pérez’s favorites. I’ve heard Saudi clubs are knocking, but I don’t think he’ll leave. Florentino is an aesthete of the game and will do everything to keep him. I remember that brace in the first leg two years ago.”

- One of those goals came from a Toni Kroos assist.

“He was the one pulling the strings and making the attackers shine. Replacing that void isn’t easy. That said, I have to admit I like Valverde a lot – long before his hat trick against City.”

- Can you imagine a Real Madrid without Florentino?

“We’ve always had a great relationship. I remember spending hours talking soccer and agreeing on everything except one thing: the Super League. The political structure of soccer is simple – FIFA and UEFA at the top, then federations, then clubs. The Super League was seen as Florentino’s project, but it really emerged from the pandemic. COVID left a deep mark, and, as I understand it, all participants were to receive nine-figure signing bonuses. Fortunately, the Super League is now in the past. I recently spoke with Aleksander Čeferin at the UEFA General Assembly in Brussels, and he stressed that everyone was happy Madrid had returned to the soccer family. It’s good for Madrid and for Florentino – conflict helps no one.”

- Is Florentino’s relationship with Madrid about passion?

“Of course, and I understand that he always wants the best for the club. I remember he even stepped aside when he believed he was the problem – but he never was. He took Madrid back to heights only reached before under Bernabéu. What people don’t consider is how much harder it is today to sustain that level of success. Florentino is worth his weight in gold.”

- And Laporta at Barcelona?

“Joan was my vice president at the ECA – we share a great friendship. Before his return I warned him about the club’s financial situation, but he’s a fan first and was always going to push forward. Time has proven him right. On the field, the club is back at the top, and the finances are gradually improving. As for Flick, I told him the most important thing is to be his friend. Hansi needs trust. It’s clear he applied that – things are working and he’s doing a great job.”

- Let’s talk about Bayern. You stepped down as CEO in 2021 and returned to the supervisory board in 2023.

“It wasn’t planned. But Uli Hoeness and Herbert Hainer contacted me because they weren’t happy with the overall situation. Bayern has always been a serious, solid club. Franz Beckenbauer used to say success is key, but always financed in a sustainable way. At some point we drifted, investing too much in wages and agent commissions, but we’re correcting that now.”

- Do agents need to be reined in?

“We’re all in the same boat, so we should sit down together – agents, federations, leagues, and clubs. We’ve completely lost our bearings. Last summer, $1.35 billion (€1.17 billion) was paid in agent fees. Five years ago it was $500 million, already a lot. When Bayern buys from Freiburg, Freiburg buys from Mainz, and Mainz buys from elsewhere, the money stays in soccer. What agents take does not – and it’s harming the sport.”

- What do you mean?

“First, Bayern Munich is not a place agents can ignore. If we decide not to work with a representative again, there are consequences. We also need to push FIFA’s reforms on transfers – the idea of a fixed five percent of a player’s annual salary going to the agent is good. Right now we’re around ten percent. We need a joint solution, because alongside inflated wages, these commissions are the biggest problem in soccer. Unfortunately, some German courts have struck down caps so far.”

- Are you optimistic about a solution?

“We have to try first. If it doesn’t work, then we go to European courts. Politics has been reluctant to regulate, preferring free competition. But Brussels should recognize that spending in soccer has gone beyond all limits.”

- Do you like the new Champions League format?

“I remember applauding it when it was presented in 2021. The idea came from a German chess player, by the way – sadly a Dortmund fan (laughs). The knockout rounds were always great, but the group stage had become heavy. Now it’s very entertaining. UEFA deserves credit.”

- The expanded World Cup could resemble the old Champions League group stage…

“Let’s give it a chance first. For the eventual champion it’s only one extra game. I have a trusting relationship with Gianni Infantino and believe it will be a good tournament. Of course, an event of that magnitude has political dimensions – soccer has to live with that because it’s part of society. Above all, I hope Germany can bring joy back to its fans after recent disappointments.”

- After the U.S., Mexico, and Canada, Spain will host in 2030.

“It will be special – the first World Cup across different continents. It’s about time a soccer-loving country like Spain hosted again. I played in the 1982 World Cup and had minutes in that legendary semifinal against France in Seville. The atmosphere matched what Spain is – one of Europe’s soccer powers, alongside England, Germany, and Italy.”

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